Every September in Canada we recognize Orange Shirt Day, a day set aside to consider the impact that residential schools had on Indigenous communities and we talk about the victims. But what about those who ran the schools? Who worked there?

And what about the contemporary systems that we find ourselves in as both victims and workers.

Well first you need to convince people that there actually are systems and we can't bootstrap ourselves out as individuals.

Ken Williams, @feralplaywright on Twitter, joins us for a wide ranging discussion about systems.